This is How Tutoring Can Play a Key Role in Reducing Educational Disadvantage, with Daniel Dipper Podcast Transcript

Ludo Millar [1:28]Hello, and welcome to the Qualified Tutor Podcast. The podcast that brings you the latest in the world of tutoring, EdTech and education and hopefully inspires in you the big change that each and every one of us is capable of. Qualified Tutor is an industry-leading tutor training organisation, and online tutoring community for 1000s of tutors around the world. This podcast is the voice of this community, where we aim to hear from tutors, teachers, entrepreneurs, coaches, business experts, students, tutorpreneurs and more from the world of tutoring about what inspires them every day, how they can help tutors like you and what they’ve learned about tutoring along the way. The question is, what will you learn today?

Welcome today to Daniel Dipper. Welcome Daniel, how are you?

Daniel Dipper [2:25]I’m okay, thank you. How are you?

Ludo Millar [2:27]I’m very well thanks, Daniel. Daniel is first and foremost a very valued member of the Qualified Tutor Community and an amazing spokesperson for tutors, educators and many of the underserved and underprivileged across the education sector. As a little introduction to the vast array of things that Daniel takes part in and contributes to, he is currently a History and Politics undergraduate at Magdalen College, Oxford, he was a lighting tutor for two years and has since launched Get To University, which is an Access Project that Daniel divided to support year 12 students who are looking to apply to university in the coming year. Daniel is also a Potential Plus UK Trustee. And we might hear a little bit more about that in Daniel’s responses today, and has written blogs for just about every educational organisation in the UK it seems, including Potential Plus, the Sutton Trust and of course, us here at Qualified Tutor. Daniel has a very bright future ahead of him, and a pretty glittering past as well. And I can’t really wait for this podcast episode to become the recording that QT can point to in 20 years time and say, ‘Hey, look, we had Daniel on our podcast way back in 2021’. So Daniel, thank you so much for joining us. And you are right on the eve of returning for your second year at Oxford … thoughts and feelings?

Daniel Dipper [4:04]Yeah, I’m really looking forward to it. It should be good to get back, particularly now things will be opening a bit more, a lot more social opportunities. And actually there’ll be a lot more face-to-face contact as well. Hopefully we tutor so should be really positive experience.

Ludo Millar [4:17]Yeah, and things perhaps looking a little more positive on that side in terms of socialising and returning to in-person seminars and tutorials than this time last year. So that’s a good thing. And I think that it would be good to get right in to start here. And because there’s so much that we want to hear from you. So that first question, Daniel is the one that we always start with: What is your why as a tutor, Daniel?

Daniel Dipper [4:47]Yeah, so really great question. I think I’m going to answer with two stories that are kind of different perspectives on tutoring. So my first experience in tutoring, that you spoke about, was the lighting tutoring that I was doing. So it was with me BET’s organisation called Young Technicians, who are- basically I was kind of just naturally happen, so to speak. So I joined the scheme in 2016, when I was starting out as a student, and I was learning from other students not really interested in the lighting. So, in my own time, I was exploring the lighting, I was watching tutorial videos online, reading the manuals, experimenting with the software, and I was starting to really develop my skills outside of the classroom. So I was using what they kind of put me with the basics. And then I was using that, developing my own shows, and practising from there. So when I got to the end of my GCSE, some of the other people who’d been tutoring at that organisation, they’ve moved on. And I was asked if I was happy to step up and do that. So it was kind of there, it was just a natural progression, in terms of- I’ve learned quite a lot in the classroom, and from my own experiences. So it was really an opportunity for me to share that with other people and to develop my skills in a different area. So that was my first experience of tutoring. So it wasn’t really a deliberate, ‘I set out to achieve that’, it was more it just happened. And it was a new way of challenging myself stretching my skills, and actually trying to convert all the things I had in my head. How do I get that and communicate that to students who are used from 11 to 18? How do I make sure it’s digestible? For people who may never have seen this before?

And then the second experience, which I’d say is having more of an impact now, is I supported by an organisation called Access Oxbridge, now called Zero Gravity. And basically I was applying to Oxford, no one from my school had applied to Oxford. A few had applied to Cambridge, but never to Oxford. And I wasn’t massively shown the application process, when the University website, I think it’s quite helpful. But it’s not the same as actually having that experience, being able to talk. So we’ve done it themselves has gone through that process, and then has actually gone study out so and so that platform, connecting me with an undergraduate studying History and Politics at a college in Oxford, and the one hour a week of video mentoring, supporting my application, by the time I got it only submitted my personal statement. But they were really, really helpful for preparing for the History admissions test to have to do and I think as well, it kind of really exemplified some of the positives of tutoring, because instead of them following their set plan where, in week one, we should cover this because they had a typical plan of like session one, you should cover this session to whatever, they really adapted it to my needs.

Because after we’ve done the personal statement, they start straight on the History admissions test, so we started exploring that. So instead of telling things that only knew what they did was they walk through an example with me, I then go away, in my own time, I do some practice, they give me some feedback, I then do another one in my own time, and they give more feedback. And the sessions are more about than just conveying that feedback, giving me an opportunity to ask questions, instead of being basically telling me how to do things that I wouldn’t be doing. So that was really, really helpful. And then they also helped me with some interview practice. And I think that potential got in anyway, but actually, that that process was so beneficial, because it’s reassuring, as well to hear from some of you’ve done that. And you’re saying, I think you’re doing quite well, this is really good, you can work on this as well. And I think as well, the process generally beneficial for my subjects as well, having to engage critically with historical sources is part of the a level curriculum. So I think that that was really beneficial to get that one to one contact time as well, that one hour week was someone who was studying that subject I wanted to be so that was one of the second experience. And I think really, the tutoring that I’ve been doing since has really had that social impact sort of perspective because I was helped by them. Now I’m trying to do what I can to help other people get where I have if they want to do that.

So I’m actually a moment Zero Gravity Mentor. So I’ve now kind of flipped over onto the other side. Now I’m actually supporting a student of lif e History and Politics outside. And as you say, as well admittedly, I’ve paused get to university for the moment, but I set up a particular thing in May 2020. Because I have quite good rapport with some of the students here below me. And those beginning to look at university applications. They really weren’t sure they didn’t know. Basically anything they were saying to me what is a personal statement, I was like, ‘Hang on, like we really need to start from square one here’. And really kind of spell out all of the stages and potentially, particularly with lockdowns, or the fact that teaching online and a lot of the work that have been provided to them, which is worksheets, those like I think actually be really beneficial for me to file a small amount of like seminars really to go through. Okay, this is how this is something you want to consider when applying for university. This is how I’d go about from several personal statement. So I’ve had a few kind of larger group sessions where there’s about 10 or 15 students and actually they’re available on the gates University YouTube channel, I’ve left them off as a resource for people to refer to about some of the admissions assessment as well and, and also, as I say about personal statements. And then the other part, which isn’t kind of online was working with the individual students providing some tailored feedback on their personal statement. So I was looking at how draws less in the draft to me, and then I send them back with most probably more pages of feedback from what they sent me to begin with in terms of content. So, so yeah, that’s kind of some of the social impact stuff I put out to do, because I think it’s really powerful, will be able to transform their prospects and support other people to basically do what I’ve been able to do.

Ludo Millar [10:19]Yeah. So you mentioned- talked a little bit there about what the power of tutoring is and how were you able to be supported by a mentor who was able to tailor the program to your needs, and not just deliver a kind of structured, pre-arranged course that were all curriculum, your mini curriculum. So what is it that you think tutoring can achieve? What is the power, do you think, of tutoring?

Daniel Dipper [10:49]Yeah, so I think again, I’ll use an example and then hopefully expand from there. So when I was doing the lighting, tutoring, it’s a different kind of classroom about, you’re not preparing someone to sit in exam or test to preparing someone to do that job in real life. So what I was doing was teaching them how to use the software, how they needed to troubleshoot in real time and try and do some of that simulation. But actually, a lot of the learning as well would be with the Unreal World Festival, some of these festivals we had 35,000 people going to visit over the course of a weekend. And it was working with them in that high-pressure situation, to support them with troubleshooting or running the show making sweet as possible. So in terms of that, it was about taking a student who, potentially in September when they joined, but never really thought about lighting for they didn’t know any of the terminology, they didn’t know how to do anything. And hopefully by the July of that next year, then be able to on a lighting show on their own or with minimal support, and really feeling competent and confident to do that. So I think that’s a real example of where, when the stakes are quite high. And what they want to achieve is, is quite large, because I’ll work hobbies, it’s a big thing. You’re not just teaching students how to do math equations, or whatever, which while they’re important, you know, this was really challenging stuff, sometimes running with hundreds of lights with like £20,000 worth of equipment.

So I’d say that tutoring, I think though actually some of that tutoring, though it wasn’t just actually giving them you know, this is how to do this. This is how to do the lab actually making them feel comfortable about this is how to do this. And I think actually, the qualified tutor course covered this as well. It’s about the the trust leap in the sense that students need to feel comfortable, to be able to make those decisions, or do those things, particularly as a sailor, the stakes are so high. So it’s about really creating an environment where students feel comfortable to make mistakes, try things out, and where they also believe in their own ability to do that.

So I think that actually a massive part of tutoring, particularly when you first meet a student isn’t actually about, okay, we need to write this essay, analyse this historical source, it’s all about getting the student comfortable to do that, and be able to perform at their best. Because, you know, you can teach them a lot of actually, if they’re not comfortable, they’re not going to be able to achieve their potential, and they’re not going to be able to replicate it when you’re there. So I think that as I say, the first stage is really the confidence aspect in terms what they can achieve. I mean, as I say, I’ve managed to go to Oxford, and I feel that the support is provided was massively beneficial and supportive of that. So I think that tutoring can achieve a lot. And I think that actually, if I touch on Potential Plus UK, I should say, of course, I’m speaking in a personal capacity here. I’m not speaking on behalf of them. But I think that for the students that charity, particularly support students who, who be described as high learning potential students who really could achieve a lot academically but not always in the classroom with their needs tailored to, because these are the students who most probably quite a few of them will be going through the worksheet at 90 miles an hour, they’ll be getting 90-100% of it, right. And actually the you know, the typical classwork that may be set of them may not always be enough of a challenge. So actually, what tutoring could potentially achieve there is it would be about stretching them beyond their comfort zone into a group.

So it would actually be really, you know, responding to their needs and making sure that they’re being adequately challenge. So I think that that’s just another example where tutoring can achieve a lot because actually, I feel that some students who are highlight hurling potential, they may be disengaged from the classroom because they go to the classroom, and they’re not being challenged. They’re just being given things which just really are not reflective of their capabilities. So actually, tutoring is a good way and it’s also good for other students who may have have had I was listening to jack Simmons episodes a few weeks ago tutoring that could be really helpful for students with dyslexia or who may have kind of always been written off because they’re not going to fit in a typical mode, but actually tutoring re-engages them with learning and creates that environment. Again, I think the lesson is so important in that environment where they’re comfortable, to really achieve their best and try things out because you only learn from getting things wrong.

Ludo Millar [15:15]So that’s such a key, essential baseline element, isn’t it? To helping students grow and improve, and also to understanding themselves a little bit more, because we so often are terrified of mistakes, and normally and even now as adults, we’re terrified of mistakes. But you know, children are perhaps even more scared, because they’re not sure of the level of punishment or whatever they’re going to receive for that. So letting them know that mistakes are very much part of success is actually really helpful. On that very same point, you touched a little bit there on disadvantaged students who perhaps are struggling in the classroom. How do you think tutoring specifically can help to reduce a little bit of the educational disadvantage, both in this country and abroad?

Daniel Dipper [16:07]Yeah, so I think tutoring can play a massive role. Because I mean, all teachers will absolutely try their best, well, they may have more 10, 20, 30 pupils in front of them. So they’re going to try and pitch to bring in as many of those students as possible, and try and you know, they’ll try and find a point where there’s some continuity between all the different students, or they’ll stick to a curriculum, because they need to cover the right amount of content, for example, as we’ve discussed, they can meet you where you are, which is really, really important. So we’ve locked out. And the impact of that on online learning, you know, of course, you’d have some students who didn’t have access to the internet, or to online learning at all, some schools were not in a position to be able to provide a full range of online learning. And actually, they’re only providing one or two worksheets, or they weren’t having that contact time. And also even in the classroom, you know, the teacher sometimes will stop with a student for a few minutes, and they’ll work through the problem with them. But actually online, I mean, that can happen in a one-to-one environment. But that’s much more challenging when you’ve got a class of 20 on Teams or whatever. So I think in terms of educational disadvantage, I think tutoring can play a really big role because a tutor really has that time because of that small group teaching to really identify where there needs to be more work and where there needs to be improvement. So that you can potentially use assessments but actually assessments can be quite intimidating particularly as I get the understanding quite a few students have kind of been tested there for at the start of the academic year within an inch of their life. So actually tutors can use more informal methods to inquire as the student Okay, where do you think people work on or you can just observe the student and how they’re working identify these areas of improvement so I think tutoring can play a massive role in educational disadvantage.

And we’ve seen the National Tutoring Programme of course, which was that interest and the F and other organisations were involved in the creation of so that kind of is what tutoring on the map and showing that actually tutoring could be a way of closing this though of course, if they’ve been taken out of the school day from other subjects then potentially the impact tutoring because they lose in some of the other parts of the curriculum, the impacts of tutoring may not be as large so I think that tutoring can be really really important because I mean, you know, I’m not saying Get To University was amazing or perfect, but what it delivered was it took students in May 2020 from, ‘We don’t know what a personal statement is, what’s a conditional offer, to how to write a personal statement to by August or September’. All of these students had what I would call a good draft of a personal statement, and all it needed was a bit more fine tuning, teacher feedback and they were ready to go. So I think the tutoring can take someone from point A to point B and potentially you may not go in a straight path, there may be a bit of wiggle, you may go backward, you may go sideways, you know, wherever you go, it doesn’t matter because you get to you know, a more positive path.

And going back to the educational disadvantage, with lockdown and less of that personal contact I think that again, it’s just about opening students up to learning showing it can be fun, it’s not just setting for those two to three hours a day or however long I was just receiving worksheets a resume actually we can play games, we can talk things through we can have debates, we can have discussions and actually when tailoring that learning to students hopefully will unlock them because as well some students will have had a really tough time. You know, being socially isolated or whatever else they were experienced. It’s about overcoming those as well those feelings the students may have and tutoring as I say it can do that because of creating that really good positive learning environment.

Ludo Millar [20:33]And you have very much been at the forefront, Daniel, of the tutoring sphere as it’s developed over the past 12-18 months. How would you say that your attitudes towards tutoring, about tutoring have changed? What have you seen are the developments and what impact do you think that’s going to have on students?

Daniel Dipper [20:56]Yeah, so I think two things. Firstly, it’s become a bit more than that with the National Tutoring Programme. It’s almost like the government has recognised it exists.

And that itself is quite important because I feel previously I could feel previously and potentially I have this preconceived view as well tutoring was kind of seen as a thing that people who want to get into a grammar school, you know, with, like the 11+ exam, or people who are potentially at private school, who need further support. Well, that’s what they do, they’ll pay for a tutor. But it wasn’t really seen as something that people like me with us, we wouldn’t use a tutor what you know, that’s not really something we can afford. And then there was almost- I wouldn’t say ‘class’ is the right word, but there was some sort of cultural value, but also having a tutor seemed odd. Whereas I feel like now the fact that lots of students have had a tutor for the National Tutoring Programme. And actually, there’s been lots of initiatives out there, not just Zero Gravity for three minutes oil, but there’s other platforms, which have been providing teaching, I can’t think of any but there’s definitely a lot out there. I’ve seen them on my social media feeds. So just the fact that it’s become free I think is actually a massive step as well, because it’s going over that divide MIT showing that anybody can benefit from that personalised support.

So I think that yeah, definitely tutoring is a lot more on the map. I think that it certainly has a larger role to play. And it’ll be interesting to see the National Tutoring Programme in the long term, extra support arm that we’re going to have. We don’t just have teaching assistants working with students in the classroom, but actually we have a bank of tutors, potentially local tutors even, who can work with individual schools to ensure that all their students are fulfilling their potential. So yeah, I’d say that some lockdowns have put tutoring on the map. But I still say though there’s work to do to project the benefits of tutoring because I mean, I went to quite a few meetings over lockdown, a few discussion events about tutoring. And there were still people saying, ‘Oh, tutoring is just a corrupt industry, because all it’s about is just making money out of people who want their children to do well in tests’. And it’s like, ‘Well, tutoring isn’t just that’, as I’ve been saying, with the lighting aspect of things, what actually I think was most beneficial part then participated in that activity, I don’t actually think it was the front, they knew how to do lighting or whatever it’s called, then where you’d want to clear in it, but actually, I think it was important thing was no giving those students the confidence to do those things, particularly such large scale. And for them to be able to talk about the transferable skills that they’ve developed as well, because I think that one thing as well as in our society, I believe we’ve got education is one stack of skills. And then we got work business, everything else, that’s kind of a different set of skills. But actually, we need the same skills, really, I feel that an independent learner in the classroom has the necessary skills to be a great business person, because an independent learner, they can manage their time quite well, which therefore means that they can ensure to meet their client deadlines, and independent learn, if they don’t k now something, they can look into it. So that means that if they’re trying to see about how they can develop their business, or if they need to learn more about some of their clients asked about again, they’re well equipped to do that.

And actually my blog, which is on the Qualified Tutor’s website about independent learning, and my Live Topic Review, which is part of the Level 3 Qualification also, I was really trying to say, with independent learners, it’s not just about setting these students up for university, but actually, if the students are not interested in university at all, which there’s a vast, vast number of students. So I think that at the moment, our system kind of pushes those students still to go to university, but actually, we really need those strong vocational votes and also not see vocational something worse, because actually, you know, plumbers can earn quite a lot of money. It’s not some sort of profession that should be looked down upon. And actually there has to be highly skilled to do that role they have to know about all the intricacies they need to be really well equipped to be problem-solving, manage their own taxes. These are all things that we should be really setting learners up for success.

So I think that actually, tutors shouldn’t just be seen as something before I want to go to a top university or whatever. But actually, personal development tutors can be beneficial while thinking in everything. And actually I have seen some companies it’s not become mainstream yet but actually some companies providing what I described is like extra curricular tutors so what they are is they’re not tutors to support a student with English or Maths or Science or History, there are tutors who are supporting learners develop their debating skills for I mean, we already have music tutors, quite a few people may have music tutors, but actually it’s about people who are there to develop your personal transferable skills. And actually, I feel that that is a massive part of tutoring which isn’t spoken about enough is not an exam factory, it’s actually about getting students ready to engage with learning and set them up for whatever they want to do next in life. So as I say, I feel personally I choose to be massively inefficient and want to be a plumber given those skills to be an independent business person.

Ludo Millar [26:02]What a good vision for the future, we have kind of individual tutors for plumbing or for hairdressing or for these wonderful vocational courses to provide an alternative to as you say, this societal pressure to go and do some academic degree at a university,

Daniel Dipper [26:22]I suppose we have it already, though, don’t we? Apprenticeships. They’re massive both, it’s almost a form of tutoring, because you’re putting them in that learning environment, in a workplace. And they get an opportunity to work usually in small teams, and learn the skills on the job. And actually, I’m a massive supporter of apprenticeships. And I think that 360 degree apprenticeships where you combine both the educational and the practical element where you can apply that learning. I think that actually, you know that, in a way is a form of learning. It’s a form of tutoring, it’s form of education. So really acknowledging the power of that as well.

Ludo Millar [26:55]Yeah. So, just to finish because you’re already providing a little vision of the future, and I think a greater synergy between non-standard, academic subjects and tutoring could be a very good way for tutoring to become more diverse and more complete as a sector, as an industry. What would success for you look like for tutoring by 2030?

Daniel Dipper [27:29]I think success would be, people, general people, including students. really seeing the value of tutoring. Let’s say, it’s not just seen as a short term solution, but I think quite a few people may see as ‘Okay, the 11+ is coming up, GCSE is coming up, it’s March or April. So let’s just get a tutor for the last few months to do that final preparation’, but actually having the tutors at the start laying the groundwork is actually really, really important, I think. So I would definitely say bringing tutors in very early in that process.

And also not just being seen as, as a say just that exam, we just need them to finish this exam. But actually, it can be a great way of engaging in independent learning, because particularly with the top universities, they’re going to be looking for students who will interest in their subjects and actually having someone who not doing the work for them. That’s not what changes about the tutor is about enabling that student to do the work for themselves and giving them the skills to do that. So having that shooters talk about that History subject you find very interesting, making wider recommendations of things you can engage in, like lectures or, or certain books or those sorts of things actually can be really, really beneficial. So I think, definitely, by expanding the scope of what people think tutoring is about standards, of course, what virtue is about having that quality mark. So you’ve engaged in a learning process, and actually, you’re committed to professional development by being part of the community. So really rolling out having those standards because I think some people may view tutoring as less because it’s far less regulated. Of course, we need to follow the best practice for safeguarding and child protection, which we’ll choose from a short to do, but actually regulating it ensuring that there are some standards in place there as well will hopefully kind of see that policy of esteem between a tutor and a teacher.

I remember Julia Silver, who founded Qualified Tutor, saying tutoring is not Plan B. And actually, I think really underlining that to people as well seeing it as a career because I don’t think there’s that many people who see it as a career. And I think kind of the other thing is, as I say about bridging those gaps, it not just being a paid service, because of course I understand teachers will need a voice level of course, but actually, it’s about these voluntary organisations which are connecting university undergraduates with students then sort of really beneficial interventions which can only be like an hour of your time a week, really ball rolling them out much more widely. So, again, I’m not speaking for Zero Gravity but Zero Gravity, I certainly plan to expand a lot and have a much larger cohort. So it’s about, yeah, just keep expanding, expanding the reach of tutoring so that as many students can benefit as possible. And also, hopefully, the government really recognising the ocean just complain because say we’ve got the National Tutoring Programme currently.

But it’s about ‘Okay, what’s happening in longer term? Are we just going back to normal in quotation marks?’ And actually, I would say, no, we shouldn’t just be going back to normal. We should be reflecting on what we’ve learned over the last 18 months and seeing what interventions actually work. Because, before 2020, the 2019 figures for the disparity between the lowest socioeconomic backgrounds and the highest socioeconomic backgrounds, in terms of their educational outlook in terms what they achieve. There’s about an 18-month gap between them, and that’s gone. So the Sutton Trust research referenced that as well as some of the other organisations in the education space. So there was already this disparity before we got to Coronavirus. So it’s really about putting in place interventions to ensure that we close that gap. It’s not just about dea ling with the effects of Coronavirus, it’s about dealing with the effects of everything else. And actually hopefully getting it that we really do live in a country where it doesn’t matter what your background is, where you’re born. But actually the outcomes you get are the same. It’s about how much work you put in. So see, I hope there’s a few kind of ideas of different ways that it can go in the next 10 years and hopefully keep putting it on the map and really show the benefits of tutoring.

Ludo Millar [31:39]There’s so much in there, Daniel, thank you so much for for taking the time to explain all of the work you do and have done over the past few years. It’s really a very, very impressive set of skills that you have set and the kind of contributions you make to the education sphere to the tutoring sphere, the lighting sphere to the Qualified Tutor Community, to our courses. And obviously, all of the various projects that you are involved in. Just quickly, what is the best way that someone listening to this now can can get in touch with you?

Daniel Dipper [32:15]Most probably LinkedIn, I would actually just it’s okay as bad. Another thing I didn’t mention, which I think could be really good. So another way that I’d say tutoring is kind of filtering into the more general sort of discourses such in the space, which is my colleagues, they just launched a post-offer-holder mentoring scheme. So what it does is it connects undergraduates, we have students who are in target areas for the college in terms of outreach, they really want to increase the number of students applying from those areas. And basically each of those who they have their interview, and they’ve received an offer form or letter. And basically the scheme is they get a one-hour mentoring session off they’ve received offers talk through their options for the students to ask questions about what it’s like to study broadly and the academic demands. And also then they offer a later session, when they’re actually coming to Magdalen to talk about, you know, the practicalities of what to pack, I used to really again, we assure those inserts to make them feel really comfortable. And actually, some of the conversations have been amazing. The blogs that I wrote for the Oxford History Faculty and Qualified Tutor about the essay-writing process. They’re actually the idea of like, then blocks chain form those conversations, because I was looking at what questions all these students asking me about how do I go about writing an essay. So I use their questions, and I have them in my head when I was writing that blog. So I’d say that that’s another way that tutoring articles been really beneficial because his form of mental and I suppose is of all tutoring, of course, mentors suggest much more than, say, an equal relationship, because really what tutors should be going for, it shouldn’t be a tutor talking at a student, it should be two people working together to fulfil the educational goals. So that’s key, as I say. Well, I don’t think it’s a matter of the transformer degree in terms of their how well they’re doing their degree. In short, the students are more comfortable when they’re settling in. They’ll know someone who they can talk to you while they’re at the university. So that’s just another way you were, I think that was a beneficial intervention.

Ludo Millar [34:16]Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Daniel. Best of luck with the term ahead. And if you’d like to stay in touch, as Daniel said, you can find out more on his LinkedIn profile or you can contact him in the QT Community. So one final time, Daniel, thank you very much. And we’ll speak again soon. Thank you. Cheers, Daniel.

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